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Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/21 08:18pm

I'd like to pose a question in the hopes that a serious discussion will ensue.

Do you feel that you received what you needed through your divorce, or had the resources to make it through? If so, what resources did you rely upon. If not, what would have assisted your transition from 'Married' to 'Single'? What were some of your initial fears and most pressing difficulties?

Please feel free to take this to mail, if you are more comfortable sharing that way. I am looking at some options with LDSSS (Social Services) and seeking to bridge the huge gap between being a "Married LDS" person, and a "Suddenly Single" LDS person. I'm more interested in that specific time in your life, than the Singles program already in place. It simply seems to me that there is this place where you are not really 'married' any longer, but neither are you yet 'single'. What are your thoughts?

M

Date:   08/21 08:55pm

Well I am in that vote now. I am going through a divorce. I have relied on my Heavenly Father, the gospel of Jesus Christ and my scriptures. My parents have been a big part of helping me cope as with the rest of my family. I was married for 5 years and he has threatend my life, my families and it is very scary each day. The transition has been hard but with help of family and friends it has been alot easier than most. I feel it would have been alot harder if there were children involved. I had children but they were my step. It was hard to leave, but as time when on it gets better. I am glad to be out of this situation because of how I lived in and through it. It is hard to try and find that single area again. As my divorce decree comes, I will be able to share with you more. But anyone who is in need of help, please feel free to ask me questions. I have been there and still am and would love any advice that anyone might want to give.

Thanks!!!!!

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 12:49am

Thank you so much for sharing tenderly. If I may. . . In your 'process', do you feel that perhaps a group, within the confines of the church system and a 'safe' place to go and talk about things would be advantageous? How about a phone number you could call in your state, to learn about laws and what and HOW to take care of yourself and your rights and the things that you needed to do to begin the process of returning to yourself? Do you feel that you have enough support of people who understand? Would you like access to others who are in a similar place in their lives to talk with?

 

Date:   08/21 10:47pm

I have lurked here, reading all of your wonderful posts, for a while but this is a subject that really touches a nerve..... so I will share. My husband and I had lived in this ward for 3 1/2 yrs, during which time he had been pretty inactive. When he moved out he went and told the Bishop that he was moving. Neither the Bishop or his counselors ever spoke to me to see how me or my children were doing. I only had home teachers for 2 of the 6 months I was separated, and I don't remember the last time I saw my visiting teacher. I don't want to sound bitter but, I felt totally abandoned by the ward. I had been Primary Pres., ward music chairman, I even led the music in Sacrament mtg. These leaders knew me. I thought they were my friends. It simply added another heartbreak to an already difficult time in my life. But......we learn and grow. I know that the reason I go to church is because I believe with all my heart that this is where I will find true happiness through the gospel of Jesus Christ, not because it's where my friends are . By the same token, I cannot blame another for my not going to church. How other people behave is of no consequense to how I behave. I realize that everybody gets caught up in their own life, me included. While no one likes to talk about divorce, I feel that there needs to be a system in place to make sure that those going through it are getting the support that they need.

 

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 12:53am

There are people who try very hard to live what they believe and to sincerly help and be there for those who are in a place where they may need more than the once did, or will again. Your sharing is greatly appreciated, and the time you've taken to answer my question.

Do you think that if there was a place you could go that assured you that you could belong to a group of people in similar circumstance and stage of their process, that it would have made a difference? Would your trust and spirituality been assisted or supported as you regained your footing? Would a place where others could join together, perhaps on a week day once a week or every other week, have made a difference?

Date:   08/22 12:30am

Though I dont think that one can ever be fully compensated in a divorce, I did my best to get what I would need to take care of my five children. I was given the house, which I had to sell and this helped a lot finacially for the next 6 years while I went back to college and earned a degree. After the house was sold, me and mine moved in with my parents. My dad was suffering from alzeheimers and my mom needed help caring for my dad.
Finacially, even with my intial assets, it has been a tough struggle but I'm still hanging in there.
The transition from being married to being single was hard too in that the sisters in the ward look at you much differently now and keep a guarded eye on their husbands. You quickly learn what being a third wheel is. I know that I felt so alone and even wonder to this very day after 9 years if that feeling of lonliness will ever leave me.
Hope this answers what you want

�S�

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 12:57am

That will ever 'pay' for the pain that divorce causes.

I have felt some of the ways you described as well. I am honoured that you have replied with such intimate feelings and tender griefs. Do you think that if your bishop had a resource, and suggested that you attend a 'Single Again' group, that you would have been open to the idea? Would such a place that had information, perhaps a resourse to a massage therapist, and some concrete information on your particular situation would have made a big difference in how you handled things, or even how you felt about it to this day? Is there a way to help those who will be crossing the bridges you built, do so with less pain than you had to suffer?

Thank you again for your serious and graceful reply.

M

 

Date:   08/22 07:57am

I know how you feel.

When the mother of my children left them, me and the church, the membership of our ward seemed to leave us as well. The sisters of the ward became quite antagonistic towards my children to the point my girls almost quit going to young women Tuesday night meetings. I asked them to go to opening exercises and then if they wanted to leave do so. They left after the open far more often then not but they continued to go to that part anyway. One young women leader walked up to my second oldest daughter and said �it must be hard living with a father that does not believe in love.� My daughters would come home quite upset after fast and testimony meetings because sisters would get up and speak of the love the sisters showed their family when they got a cold or the flu but our family did not receive any help through out the entire separation or divorce. No one of the Bishopric offered any help nor did we have any home teachers through out this period of time. Fact is there still are no home teachers coming over.

Still I think there is a plan in place, it is the one I taught my daughters about. We all have the gift of the Holy Ghost, it is real and it is the Comforter. I taught my daughters to seek their strength and support from their Father in Heaven not from flesh and blood. I taught them to cry unto their God at night and to sing praises to Him in the morning. I taught them to read the Book of Mormon daily and to ask their Father in Heaven for wisdom in their hardships and through the lessons of life. To refuse to dwell on the bad, even when we were out of food and I was a college student we refused to dwell on the bad. Turned out the college had a food program for the single parent students, we used it. I tried to teach my girls to see the Hand of God in their lives even when all was dark and dismal. Today one daughter is a RN another is four months away from becoming a RN and my third daughter is just entering training to become a RN. They are all active and strong in the gospel and we can honestly laugh about all the lessons we learned and the struggles we faced, I would never want to give this up. I would rather suffer hardships and horrors without the aid of flesh and blood if it meant I could and would grow closer to my Father in Heaven and become more like Him.

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 01:30pm

As always, you express yourself with honour and a grace that many would do well to emulate. Your difficulties are of course not unknown, or unseen by the ONE who counts. You have learned many wonderful lessons, and as you mentioned, though the help is in place, sometimes it fails, for the Lord has chosen human's to assist him.

Do you think that perhaps if you had a phone number to call for resources, or a group to meet with to gain ideas from and to help as they floundered, would have made your walk different, or. . . do you think that it would be beneficial to others like yourself?

M

 

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/23 06:56am

"I think when the Lord in His wisdom sets up a program like you wrote about it will greatly help those in need. Still I think there is a vast difference between masculine and feminine and that to be most effective in trauma assistance we as a church will need to address each in the unique way they need to be that they may come away stronger, empowered and more able to use their agency."

SO very well put. Perhaps it is the nudge that begins any new program or change in a current program. Whispers from those who it affects can be the Lord's urgings for adjustment and recognition from the inside.

I understand that some, looking back, are happy that they had their own personal 'handcart'. . . and yet. . . I still believe that an alternative must be possible to all those who simply ended up dying along the way, because of lack of adaquate assistance. Beautiful analogy btw.
M

Date:   08/22 05:55am

Chantaclair, I haven't seen you online FOR AGES! ANd it's a great question!

Me personally? I was in that "limbo" from 1998 until the end of 2001. I couldn't FIND my ex-husband who was living in a foreign country and most of the attorneys wanted around $6,000 to take the case, which I didn't have. Due to my community service and "going the extra mile" in my job, my situation became news to the ears of an attorney who finally took the case pro-bono... at the same time I was able to find a former brother-in-law who made sure my ex signed the papers (on 9/11/01 to be sure)....although he never DID give me his address..
During that time, I felt lost... I was in such a limbo... people at church STILL think that I am married sometimes because I was always in "No man's land"... in the eyes of everyone I was "married"... and yet I wasn't; I was grieving, my children were grieving and I so much needed support. I escaped in work and in my second master's degree... and made it so that I would work on Sundays to not have to deal with church for quite a while.... I hated it when I would see the church records that had HIS NAME ON THEM as my husband.. and I would struggle when the bishop (who was also my father at the time) would tell me "but he is your husband"... and all I wanted to do was escape from some of the traumatic memories I had experienced and had fled the country we lived in for.....
I needed financial assistance, others to talk to who wouldn't blame me for running out of the marriage and the country, I needed to remember I was "visible" and alive... and not just the "bishop's daughter" who no one could relate to due to my weird marriage status and other things about me....

Professionally? I think what you are proposing is an EXCELLENT idea. I think support groups both during the process and after the process would be great... with some nice handbooks to go along with them and maybe some videos. We have these sorts of resources outside of the church, but they do not convey the same message as those inside the church, and I think it would be very beneficial. The whole idea of group therapy I personally think is THE answer to many of the issues endured by those during and after the process of the divorce. If you ever want to put another head together let me know, I'd love to bounce ideas with you... Also, you might try the AMCAP (Association of Mormon Counselors and Psychotherapists) website under the resources for some ideas, articles, and other types of things that might help... the site is www.amcap.net

 

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 01:36pm

Your imput is heartfelt, honest and without rancor. What a gift. I don't know where this will go. I am however committed to doing what I can, to make it just a little better for anyone who has to walk the path that I walked. It is simply sad that as you mentioned. . a day and age when we have so MUCH information and potential for helping others, that there just isn't anything for this group of tender-hearted and vulnerable individuals.

Yes, we ought to draw closer to Father. It is imperative. Yes, we need to remain IN church, and spiritual, and yet the brass tacks of it is. . . it is very very difficult to live day in and day out with all the 'old' rules, when everything literally has changed for us. Sometimes overnight. It is like riding a tilt-a-wheel, and then suddenly stepping off into a spinning world where your footing seems unsteady no matter which part of the world you turn to.

I just may call on you. As it is, does anyone here mind if I use some of their comments (Without names) for my presentation? Email me if you wouldn't mind. . .

M

Date:   08/22 01:39pm

I can so relate to all of these stories.
I did actually find a group, although I did not find it inside of the church. I was separated over 3 1/2 years. There are also online email groups for lds members going through divorce.

When I went to church, I felt I had to have a smile plastered on my face, as my ex attended the same ward, and I wasn't yet convinced the marriage wasn't salvageable. I was struggling with depression, and my bishop at the time gave very questionable counsel. I had recieved a blessing telling me I already knew what to do (leave), but I needed to wait for the right time....

In the meantime, I called a number I had found in the paper I had kept for 2 YEARS! It is called DivorceCare, it is a christian based universal program on healing and support for people who are either divorced, divorcing, or separated. It was put together by single, divorced, and married leaders of several different churches who were frustrated with the lack of love and support for divorced or divorcing members. Meetings were held in a local church, and it was the absolute best thing I could have done for myself during this time. They all knew I was lds, very supportive and loving, and in no way did I feel any different treatment from them because of it. In fact, only about 1/3 of the people there were members of that church, and I later discovered there were 4 of us lds members. That was 2 years ago, and I have some of my very dearest, closest friends from that group.

People in the ward were curious but standoffish, and I believe they didn't want to say or do anything offensive, so they didn't do anything. As time has gone on, and I'm divorced 8 months now, things have really improved because of much of the healing I was able to do. Besides this support group, I was able to write my stake president a letter giving full detail the counsel I had recieved and let him worry about that, my new bishop gave me a calling teaching RS that gave me more of an opportunity to be with the sisters in the ward and for them to really know who I am, and they have been so wonderful. I guess I was just as cautious as they were. I have become so much stronger, like Vit, and people can see that and appreciate it, and several sisters in the ward secretly struggling with severe marriage issues have come to me to confide in. The stake president has asked to meet with me several times to see how he can direct people in the stake, as far as support, lds counselling, etc.

It was horrible and lonely, but I can see soooo many blessings because of what I went through, and my testimony could never have grown without these experiences. If you want more info on the group, I can privately email it to you. Sorry that was sooo long! I just wanted to add that it would have been so much better if there had been the same support group offered through our faith.

 

 

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/22 01:58pm

 

Never be sorry for a letter so helpful and full of honest experience. I was both delighted and bound to every word. Your experience is *exactly* what I'm talking about. It works. There are other churches that see the need, and yet we, who know so much and care so deeply, do not have the system in place to care for this very specific and sadly growing part of our membership. I would love to have a copy of your letter to your stake pres. and any ideas at all that you have on the implimentation of such a group and perhaps the format that you used. Please do Email me. . .

 

Thank you so much again.

 

M

 

Date:   08/22 04:10pm

Thank you for raising a very timely message. I have been seperated (now divorced) for 8 years yet I can still remember that period of time. I ended up losing most of my friends (you do find out who your true friends are) in my ward. The issue here was that no one knew what had happened (my daughter didn't need to hear the "dirty laundry"). I moved shortly to another ward and promptly dropped off into a black hole. No Home Teachers (I was staying with family for a few months), no calling (large ward) and I was in a state of depression/isolation. Without belaboring the details there were several occurrences that helped with the transition from married to single to being single and happy.

1. My Elders Quorum Presidency went out of their way to visit me and extend a hand of friendship (took awhile but was most hel;pful when it happened). They also assigned a gentleman who had been through a divorce to help me.
2. I was seeing a counselor through LDS Services who was incredible and has made a major difference in how I survived those years.
3. I had to take a hard look at myself and decide if I was going to "pick myself up by my bootstraps" and stay active, change and make the best of life for my daughter's sake (I wasn't the only one suffering).
4. I found a few singles (all non-members) who had made the transition through divorce (I looked for those who were Christian, had a good moral basis and seemed to have succeeded at the transition. Also provided a source of information on the legal side (still used a lawyer but thier insight was invaluable when setting up the legal issues)
5. I found a few others going through a divorce (again non-members) where I could go to unload and vent. (This process was not all that long but allowed me an outlet for the pain, anger and frustration I was feeling.

Notwithstanding all the above - the loneliness I felt was extensive and seemed at time unbearable (despite all the help from family and non-member friends). I would have welcomed a group (inside the church) where I could have gone for comfort, sustenance, support and friendship all within the guidelines of the gospel.

You mention that you are "working" with LDS social Services re: this kind of group. If so, please add some form of communication that will go to Bishops, Elder's Quorum/High Priest/Relief Society Presidents educating them on what is happening to LDS members going through a divorce. Based on the other posts, a tremendous amount of education needs to occur to help during this challenging time. Another great source of education is for those of us who have made the transition successfully, to teach our leaders (example and one-on-one discussion).

Sorry for the long message - Kudo's on a wonderful idea

 

 

I'll simply have to echo I. Sorry for length? Never ever when I'm the one questioning. The longer the better for me. I love depth and truly listening to what a person thinks and feels and has experienced. The quips may be humourous for a bit, but they are like eating appetizers your whole life.

 

Your comments are very helpful and extremely well said. There are many things that CAN be done, and one of them actually is a conduit or information phase that goes between the group and the individual and the leadership. I'm thinking almost a strong recommendation from a bishop for every divorcing couple to attend such a group for at least 3 - 5 sessions. I'm not entirely certain how it will work, but every time another person enters their honest and heartfelt experiences, I learn and refine. Keep those comments coming please!

 

M

 

Personally, I loved the format that this group had, and would love to see it left pretty much the same if converted into LDS version. It would be so neat to have GA talks for the weekly topics to go over and base the personal work that week on.

Also forgot to mention that at different times, each person is assigned a 'partner' to check on the other person sometime during that week by phone or go out for pie or something....that was helpful also.

I just read the letter to my Stake Pres....it's pretty dry and mostly informative (I was pretty hurt at the time and wanted to leave emotions out of it). You're welcome to read it.....

Dear President D, March 14, 2002

I would like to thank you for reaching out to offer me a listening ear and counsel the other week. I have been touched by the kindness you showed me-I can�t express how it felt to have a priesthood leader show love and concern even though you don�t personally know me.

As you know, I have had a very difficult time dealing with problems in my marriage. I have had other painful difficulties as well that didn�t feel right at the time to get into with you. I feel that these should be expressed to you, and it seemed more appropriate to do it in writing. I feel I have been carrying a burden that needs to be put in the Savior�s hands and this is part of that process to let it go. I hope it will be taken in that spirit, as I will try to state everything as accurately as I can.

While still new to this area and expecting a child, R let me know that he had inappropriate feelings/conduct with a female member of the ward whom he home taught, as well as a number of women throughout our marriage. He told me he did not love me, that he cared more for this �sister� than he did for me, that his actions toward me were based purely on my physical appearance. I was crushed and demanded that he be removed as the home teacher of this family. After 3 months, R still had not requested to be removed as this family�s home teacher. I decided to go to D E, Bishop of our ward. I told him about the situation and he told me he would see that the route was changed immediately, talk with R, and that there had been other problems-4 other women had also come to see him over innapropriate behavior on the part of the wife of this family. He told me that the behavior on both their parts was inappropriate. He encouraged me to make friends in the ward-and to avoid this family. He requested to talk w/ R and I together after he met privately with R. I agreed.

After meeting with Bishop E, R reported he had been told that this was normal male behavior. R felt validated and let me know that he had no plans on making any changes personally. He also told me the bishop encouraged him to stay close to this family, as they needed friends.

The Bishop then made an appointment to meet with us both at our house. He quoted marriage verses from the New Testament and proceeded to tell us that this was normal male behavior that he sometimes dealt with personally also. I was told the greater sin was on me for being angry and upset and he quoted scripture on forgiveness, and saying that the spiritual well being of the home and family was more the women�s responsibility and I was jeopardizing my family. He told me that he was very concerned to hear that R was sleeping on the couch and had not been �welcomed� in our bed and this was a very grave sin on my part. He said that I was putting R in a very delicate, difficult, and unfair position in remaining faithful and it would make it very difficult for him not to have an affair. I told him how R had told me that he was no longer attracted to me and was attracted to other women, and did not love me. The Bishop told me to �try to be attractive for him�, and suggested to R that he �try to find me attractive�.

R admitted that he did not find me attractive and felt that it was not necessary to treat me with kindness at those times. The Bishop reiterated that I not be angry and that he shouldn�t be kept from the bed. The greater sin was on my head for destroying the family. He requested to meet with us on a monthly basis and we both agreed. We had been in counseling for a few months at that point.

I did not hear from the Bishop after that. I felt such shame and despair over that meeting. I also felt horribly betrayed by both my husband and bishop. We ended up separating, and during that time, I came to see you, feeling I needed clarity on recieving a temple recommend while being separated from R. I had heard conflicting stories on that and felt that I needed to feel at ease on the subject before proceeding in getting my recommend. I did not feel I could share the separation with my bishop and did not want him to know. After feeling that I was ready to proceed with the interview process, I made an appointment with my bishop.

To my suprise, at the appointment, the bishop informed me that a ward member (a wife of our home teacher), had discovered that we were separated and shared that him, (believing it was her obligation because her husband was our home teacher). Bishop E said he did not feel comfortable giving me a recommend interview (because of the separation), and requested that he have a week to ponder it. I agreed. He also told Rt that he wanted one week to think about it before he proceeded giving me the interview. (I let him know that I had discussed it with you, my Stake President, thinking he might also want to discuss it with you before the interview first)

The next week, I saw you in the foyer and we made an appointment for your part (the Stake part) of the interview for Tuesday. I then went to meet with my bishop. He told me he had other meetings, that he had told me that he needed two weeks, not one. He suggested that he could meet me that evening , but that maybe we should just wait the second week so I would have more time to make babysitting arrangements. Well, I went home and R said that the bishop had also told him that he would meet with me in one week, not two. I remembered that I had made an appointment with you on Tuesday and needed that interview with the bishop before then. So I called Bishop E that afternoon and requested that he interview me that evening. He was obviously irritated and annoyed with me and admitted that he knew he had arranged to meet with me that day, but didn�t want to follow through, thus fabricating the story to delay me. I explained that I had already made an appointment with my Stake President for Tuesday. He became more agitated, not understanding why I had done such a thing and told me he didn�t think I should receive a recommend while separated. I also became upset and told him that he could meet with me that day as we had planned or not, but I would be keeping my appointment with my Stake President, regardless. He agreed to meet with me.

As you know, I recieved my recommend without any further upsets-that was Feb 2001. Going to the temple during this time has been more helpful than I can explain. I am planning on meeting with the bishop this Sunday at his request.

This has not just affected my marriage. I am reluctant to have a home teacher, as I have felt that the sacred role of home teaching and priesthood responsibility hasn�t been honored, either in my husband�s role or when the wife of our home teacher secretly went to the bishop, and in turn it affected my ability getting an interview for a temple recommend, and so on. I am reluctant to share information with my bishop, as well as go through any temple recommend interview with him, although I sustain him in his role as bishop of our ward.

In closing, I�m anxious to put all this behind me and not carry it with me any longer. I need to start healing the hurt feelings and let it go, and turn it over to you. I am grateful you�ve treated me with kindness and respect and that I am able to share this.

Thank you, L

))))))))))))))))

Date:   08/23 01:33am

You write so thoughtfully the truth of what it means to not know where we fit in at times. Our faith is so tied to the concept of saving 'families" and that "families are forever" that we often forget that the "GOSPEL OF CHRIST" is primarily about saving the individual. Except for the finality of the sealing ordinance, every step leading thereto is about one's relationship to God. Yet in a church inspired to lead us each careful in this path, we find ourselves at times seeming misfits and out of place. We sit in church spying others who are one with another and we feel mocked for our lonliness, or we fear the eye some septer squared to our condemnation for failing the first 9or second or third) time around. Our faith is truly for us, but we at times must struggle hard to find us a home within. Thankfully, Christ has made me feel welcome, even when I wasn't sure that some of his people did.

S is right, we so emphasise this family life that we have a difficult time finding acceptance as we pass from married to single and understand that it is a part of becoming married once again in a better and more eternal way! You and she have taught me much and enlightend us all ~L

Author: Chantaclair
Username: Chantaclair
Date:   08/23 06:50am

So very well put and beautifully expressed. Indeed it IS about the individual and their healing and learning where they fit into the plan of the Saviour. It is my desire to perhaps nudge the structure to include just a bit more support for that end, for a group I am learning is almost ignored. Not by appointment, simply because of a lack of information and truly a lack of knowing just WHAT to do with those who do not fit into current programs and norms.

I am blessed by your input. Thank you.

Date:   08/23 09:29am

It's not just divorce that puts a person in limbo from being married to being single. When one is widowed young you find yourself in the same situation. I was married for over 17 years when my husband a non-member was killed in an accident b/c of a drunk driver. It has been nearly 3 years sense his death and I am just starting to venture into dating. What I keep having to deal with is "how wounderfull it must be that you can do the temple work for your husband and be sealed as a family" as if that makes it all better, as if that makes it like we are still married and a family unit. When your still very much alone and your children with out a father, not even a weekend dad. The church seems to have very little understanding for individuals who suddenly find them selves single either b/c of divorce or death and the pain it brings and the feelings of not belonging b/c your not a family unit in the tradational sence. I know that there are single wards, and in UT they have them for singles over the age of 30. But ive been counseled that b/c my children live with me I may not attend a single ward that I have to stay in the family ward for my children, but that on occassion I can visit a single ward. It seems to me thtas very unfair b/c single mothers with there children cant attend a single ward but there ex spouse can, or vise versa. It seems to double the preassure "of becoming a family again" but denying one the oppertunitys of actually meeting some one. It would be nice if there was some sort of transition phase between married and to not married to being single.

ME - There are similarities, yet there are some very distinct things that are not emotional issues *(though there certainly are those)* but legalities as far as the church and its standards go. When a woman is a widow, she is legally and as far as the church goes, single. She can, if she wished, (Or widower of course) start dating immediately (though I'd not recommend it of course). A woman on the other hand, whose husband has walked out, is still married. Legally and as far as the church goes, she is married. Two years later, if the divorce isn't final, she is still. . . married. She can not attend singles conferences nor is she a part of the singles program. She is certainly NOT 'married', in that she can not attend (comfortably) married events, or any other social event where couples gather, yet neither can she attend any singles events or social situations. That leaves the man or woman who is in 'LDS limbo'. . . completely without any sort of social connections that are safe and within the bounds of the church. There is plenty outside of the gospel arena, but I'm not certain that is where we wish to send grieving, confused and shattered emotions.

This in no way lessens your loss, or your experiences. It is simply that I am targeting a very specific 'hole' that I have found in the 'system'. Does that make any sense? Much of what you say is right on the mark, and very appreciated. It is a gift that you posted so that I can share my thoughts on what I see as the difference as well. Thank you.

M

 

Date: 10/11 12:24am

 

Hi Marsha,

So you decided to tackle the big one eh? I am curious as to how your work will turn out. There are two fundamental issues for me. The stigma of being divorced in the church. (Widowed has its own issues but seems to be more tolerable to members than divorced). And the stigma we place on ourselves as being failures and the associated loss of self esteem. It seems in our stake that there is little interest - if any- in ministering to the needs of the single members of the church. YSI - yes. 35 and over - forget it. Inactive rate - far too high. Lots of stories in this regard but not here - not now.

Good luck with your work.

 

 

� Thinking back on your own pre-divorce past, M, did you ever have these thoughts about others in the church who were going through this?

No, however to qualify this. . . I don't know that I even KNEW anyone going through this. My little world was so tight, that the rumours were all I heard, and I rarely paid them much mind. I do recall one woman, and yes, my feelings towards her changed. No, I didn't think 'less' of her, but she did shift in my mind to another place. I think that is more true than not if we are honest with ourselves.

� Did you ever worry about divorced women getting cozy with your husband?

Never. However, I am not the jealous kind. When I trust, I trust completely. I have however experienced woman literally stepping between me and their husband, and changing places in Sunday School to sit between me and their husband. That is just the fact of it.

� Did you or those you know look down on those who were going through this?

Of course not. Then. . . I'm non-judgemental.

� Is it possible that those who are going through the tragedy of divorce are amplifying their perceptions of how others see them because it is such a focal point of their own lives?

Absolutely. That is part of it. Your self-esteem is completely shattered. It takes a long while to rebuild that part of you. Everything is seen through a new paradigm. Doesn't make it less valid however.

� And if so, how might one help someone who is going through this to feel more normal - like fellow citizens with the Saints and part of the household of God?

Truth? Read my paper. I gave lots of suggestions. :: winks :: I know you did. Just saying, that I know it is difficult for everyone. I know it is hard to know what to say or do. Sometimes, nothing is the 'right' thing. In a nut shell, I'd say that at first they ARE 'different' and not normal. We need to be treated with more compassion, yet not as wounded birds. I know it is a difficult balance. Then. . . there comes a time that we need to be 'back'. To have the tough time put behind, and no longer be a service project. I'm not certain what to tell you as far as a time frame, but for me, it was just around a year. I no longer wanted the bishop calling me every week to see how I was. I wanted to serve and simply be ME again, instead of the 'poor abandoned sister'. IF that makes any sense. I have many talents, and I needed to contribute on my own level and with my own unique gifts. So, what to do? Listen. Listen, then Listen some more. Use things like, "You are saying. . . . " and "Do you feel. . . " . . . and "I have no idea what you are going through but. . .". Skip the platitudes, skip the 'feel good' encouragement, and simply allow people to be human, and to hurt. It isn't that terrible of a thing, and eventually most of us will pull out of the abyss.
Thank you for asking. THAT, is more healing than any advice. Ask, then Listen.

A conversation: This is the text of a conversation with some random LDS singles on a chat site. I �MRS� asked them my question, and the result is the �real time� answers they gave me. I�ve included the entire conversation, changing all the nicknames to initials for privacy. I have retained all spelling, grammar and typos in context. I did edit out most of the periphery conversation not applicable to this topic.

You have joined 50+ Room

August 19, 2004

LDS Singles - An introduction and discussion:

Marsha Steed � Designated as �MRS� herein.

(Some conversation not pertaining to the discussion has been edited out. All names have been converted to letters; Spelling is SIC and unedited.)

"C" - : hi �MRS�

"B" - : hi �MRS�

�MRS� - : Ev'n

"S" - : I'm the opposite. I'm TOO willing to accept blame.

"C" - : why is the stigma so scary to some people?

"S" - : Cuz they're afraid of seeing themselves clearly. That can be very painful.

"B" - : what stigma, going to counseling? should be because of the pain but it's not

�MRS� - : Eve. . . Just wandering by. . . don't mind me.

"C" - : not that there really is or should be any, but on the outside it looks that way

"R" - : he has been going for 8 years straight now and has 2 more years of it

"O" - has joined chat

�MRS� - : I have a question for the masses though. . .

"S" - : Shoot, �MRS�

"J" - : i always thought i could learn pretty quickly........but i guess it doesn't apply hear ............teaching old dog new tricks........grin

"B": just learning in a different way maybe J

�MRS� - : Do you feel that you received what you needed through your divorce, or had the resources to make it through? If not, what would have assisted your transition from 'Married' to 'Single'?

"S" - : Whoa, �MRS�. Maybe hit the boards with that one so you can get LOTS of feedback and thought into it. I'm not divorced myself.

"C" - : that's a heavy question �MRS�

"R" - : just leaving the jerk was good enough for me �MRS�

�MRS� - : I don't particularly care for the lay-out of the boards, but that is an option, thank you.

"CJ" - : I was well prepared to take on single life �MRS� - , I have always worked, and just kept at it.

"C" - : I had a lot of assistance in my family and ward, perhaps I was just blessed. I think the best thing is to follow the Spirit int he matter and AVOID bitterness at all costs

"SH" - : what are you all talking about?

"S" - : Counseling, New Jersey, divorce, �SH�

"J" - : my ex said he had been to help but no one could help him........i think he just gave up and seems real bitter to me........

"SH" - : is that the correct order? lol

�MRS� - : Indeed. . . yet would anyone have benefited from a group-type setting that was NOT dating oriented, but sharing-oriented?

"C" - : seems like the Spirit leaves when the bitterness sets in

"B": �MRS� I could tell you but not here, it's a long story with happy overtones

�MRS� - : Feel free to write Blue.

"C" - : how do you differentiate, some people think of nothing else

"S" - : Sounds like a sad man, Sister.

"CJ" - : avoiding bitterness has been easy for me "C" - , I believe in free agency, but life has gone on and I do not think I could go back

"J" - : my ex tried to say that he was in counseling for 25-yrs

"S" - : Goodness, Sister. Not a good sign!

"J" - : what stigma "C" - ?

"C" - : I am glad for you, cj. I have really tried to keep it out of my life. I have done OK. I had a really hard spot once and was saved by a perceptive home teacher

"B": �MRS� if you're blessed you'll find a support group like I did, it gave me balance so I never became bitter or hard against my daughter's father

"S" - : If cOunseling's good, they get you better and move you out!

�MRS� - : I'm just very interested in how the structure of the church has been, or not been helpful in the transition from married to single life. . . if anyone wishes to share their thoughts, I'd be thrilled to read.

"S" - : I wish there were support groups for never-marrieds. It has its own set of problems and challenges.

"S" - : And the worst stigma of all.

"C" - : or what cigma stink? SOME people see it that way. MY first visit to a counselor was terrifying --

"K" - : yes �MRS� it is a huge problem

�MRS� - : Second question. . . gut reaction. If someone tells you they are a "Massage Therapist" . . . what comes to mind?

"B": �MRS� my ward backed me all the way and when I couldn't afford much they suppported me while in college again

"CJ" - : I live in a wonderful little war �MRS�, they have kept me welcome, I have some opinions why people feel left out tho

"R" - whispers: I had a somewhat hard time but I made it.

"S" - : Just means they're a professional masseuse, �MRS�.

"CJ" - : massage someone else

AZ: it means give me a massage QUICK

"B": just that but then I know some massage therapist who do just that..

"R" - : don't believe them

You whisper to "R" - : Many do. . . and I'm not sure 'making it' is the question when you are 'in it' . . . you know? Looking back is so much easier.

"K" - : have you met a massage threapist �MRS�

"K" - : they are great

"S" - : There are, of course, the massage therapists who offer "extras"

�DC� - : me too, I got a friend who IS a massage therapist!

"C" - : I have to put in a plug for good massage therapy - it is working WONDERS for me

"B": wrong sus, a massage therapist has more training than a massuese

"K" - : MALE ?....OR FEMALE?........�MRS�........LESSEE THE PAPERWORK

�DC� -: but I dont got money to pay her

"C" - : massage -oops

�MRS� - : I know what it means. . . I just wonder what the 'view' of them are currently in the church. .

"S" - : That's why I said "professional"

�MRS� - : Yes, my final is on Friday actually. . .

�MRS� - : Just wondering how the climate is nowdays.

"K" - : well if a good massage therapist, they are professional and only offer safe touch

"S" - : I think they're fine, �MRS�. The truly professional ones keep things cool.

"CJ" - : but if it is a prospective "date" offering a massage because he is a therapist, I would stear clear for a while

"S" - : I second that, CJ.

"C" - : My therapist is female like me, is very prfessional but also VERY spiritual and in tune. She works at the temple also, a retuned missionary. I cannot recommend her or her seervices higly enough

"B": ditto cj

"K" - : my bishop reccomends me to see a massage therapist to relieve stress

�MRS� - : We are taught to 'date' em, or rub'em' but not both.

"K" - : I NEVER HAD A MASSAGE...............

�MRS� - : You have an amazing bishop then "K" - .

"S" - : LOL, �MRS�!

"K" - : massages are great, just cant afford them

�MRS� - : You've missed out then Kings. . . nothing like it.

"R" - whispers: I was scared because I wasn't sure whow I was going to support my kids but I have been divorced for 5 years and away from him almost 6 years

"S" - : Wish I could afford massages more often too. It's about once a year now.

"C" - : in some cases you can't afford nOT to go

"K" - : THERE ARE SOME FINE WOMEN IN HERE...............SJ

"K" - : yes as a matter of fact i do

"R4" - : "K" - ...you need to find a bf to massage you

"C" - : it is wonderful wonderful therapy for emotional abuse

"K" - : we have had over 88 convert baptism since he has been bishop

You whisper to "R" - : and you found your way? Wasn't it difficult to know what to do in the beginning? Frightening? What do you think would have made things easier?

"C" - : cut it with the rubbing crap

"CJ" - : easy to say that "K" - , now go out and meet some of them

"K" - : well randy thats the ticket, but where to ya get that ticket

"K" - : ,,,,,,,,MUST BE THE MASSAGES.."K" - .....LOL

�MRS� - : A boyfriend/ girlfriend massaging you, is NOT the same thing as a theraputic massage folks. . . JFYI.

"B": rite "C" - , once the getting used to the touch is done

"K" - : lol king

"S" - : No, it'smuch better, �MRS�! LOL

"PH" - : interesting... I have had two prospective dates give me massages...

"T" - : hey "C" - , I could use some of that rubbing crap

�MRS� - : Far different. . . but from the men's view. What is your honest impression of a woman who is a CMT ?

"C" - : exactly �MRS�!!!!!

"J" - : my problem for the transition was not the money nor the resources........i knew I could count on myself.......and all that first initial is what kept me sain.......it's the emotional of losing your family, kids, house, car, and life............my mind could figure it out.........but my heart just couldn't accept

"K" - : yes �MRS� you are right. but i would not turn down either

"R" - whispers: No matter what you do it is not easy. The lord had a hand in my decission

"K" - : ok maybe the gf

"C" - : well get off here and go find some

�MRS� - : It is completely a different thing.

"C" - : jk

"J" - : uncle sam?

You whisper to "R" - : then he ought to have a hand in the healing . . . non? Smiling.

"S" - : Hey, a DIRECT WOMAN. Go, "C" - .

"S" - : Sounds terrible, Sister.

"K" - : sr jules it is very heartfelt. think i actually had a physical heart ache

"S" - : How COULD your heart accept it. Sounds like a normal reaction to me.

"C" - : thanks sue

"T" - : yes go "C" -

"K" - : no one know unless they have been through it

"K" - : but it gets better. time heals

"C" - : I am sick of horny pseudo mormons

"S" - : Care to elaborate, "C" - ?

"B": hey �Y�, didn't see you come in

"C" - : sorry, just venting

"R" - whispers: It has taken a long time but thanks to my stake president I was willing to forgive him and let the lord take over from there

"J" - : mine was falling out of love with the guy..........i didn't know who he was because he kept his "lifestyle" to himself

"C" - : nothing really personal guys

"CJ" - : lucky me, don't meet those pseudo mormons "C" - is talking about

"S" - : You mean today pseudo mormons, don't you?

"Y" - : I said Hi to ya

You whisper to "R" - : Makes things easier doesnt' it?

"S" - : I mean TOADIE!

"T" - : there is nothing pseudo, about it

"K" - : "C" - THINKS WE SHOULDNT BE....WELL.....MEN

"SH" - : they arent just men either. lolol

"C" - : yes but lets keep it offf the dang chat room, please

"S" - : Women can be toadie too, King.

"B": I was occupied with a call from my daughter �Y�, she's traveling .........flying the nest sorry I missed you

"S" - : But we need to keep it clean and friendly.

�MRS� - : Is that what she said Kings?

"CJ" - : hi yackie

"R" - : Yes, It does. Also I have a great support system here and the more I can talk about it the easier it gets

�MRS� - : The dynamics in here are always so intriguing.

"J" - : lack of bitterness was the first thing I tried not to be.........i didn't want to be a man hater.......but i can sure see why some women could be

"Y" - : no problem, blue

"C" - : you don't know me very well. My opinion is the talkers are the ones with a problem

"SH" - : I need to make my kids turn OFF the olympics and go to bed

"B": gnite �SH�, sweet slumber

"R" - whispers: I forgot to whisper my last statement

"C" - : I guess I am being rather unfriendly here

"J" - : yes, "R4" - .......got your whisper but don't know how to whisper back

"S" - : Why don't you diagnose for us, �MRS�?

�MRS� - : How �J�? I've never understood how one person's ill deeds could turn you against an entire gender.

"K" - : WELL "C" - ....CONFESSION IS GOOD FOR THE SOUL.....TELL US ALL.....LOL

"T" - : what are you "talking" about "C" -

�MRS� - : beyond me. . .

"CJ" - : mine is still young enough to have an early bedtie �SH�

"S" - : We're not taking it that way, "C" -

�MRS� - : No diagnosis �J�. . . merely intriguing observations.

You whisper to "R" - : I noticed that, but it wasn't anything too terrible. . .

"CJ" - : one person's actions have made me sure I don't want a quitter

"K" - : hey dc

"R" - : �MRS�, it is hard to trust once you have been hurt

�MRS� - : Is it �R�? Why?

"S" - : This has all been TOO interesting tonight, but I must go. Thanks for entertaining me all!!

"B": if you get hurt deep enough �MRS� it can happen

"Y" - : Hey ya Dc how's it going

"C" - : I am sorry guys for being rather snipey - just a couple of annoying experiences on another day

"J" - : we all do the best we can do............and each story is different and their's no check list........for sure

�MRS� - : Tips are appreciated "S" - .

"R" - whispers: it doesn't matter if it was or wasn't

�MRS� - : Why Blue?

"CJ" - : that's what we are here for "S" -

"B": because we're human and we all make errors

�MRS� - : Was that a nudge towards the door Chink?

"CJ" - : night ladies and gentlemen. see you some tomorrow.

"B": gnite "C" - come again and sweet slumber

"J" - : bitterness was not my problem.........i just felt betrayed........

"C" - : well I wasn't.....

"R" - whispers: Pray about it

"B": cya cj, sweet slumber

�MRS� - : Betrayal is a difficult emotion.

"C" - : A I being put to bed or what?

"K" - : �MRS� ..THE STOIC..........

"C" - : Oh I did the same thing, sorry �MRS�. I guess I meant "S"

�MRS� - : Chuckles. . . do you think you know me at all Kings ?

"R" - : just pray about it �MRS�. Thats how I got my answer

"C" - : maybe I should go - I am getting cranky

�MRS� - : What am I to pray about? I think I missed something.

"J" - : "S" - of course, he didn't say any of these things until after he was gone.............I had nothing to fight to get him, my life and my family back.............

"K" - : NO .....BUT RIGHT NOW YOUR PRETTY STIFF SOUNDING

"C" - : but I don't wanna!!! I'm not tired!!!

"R" - : You said that it wasn't really terrible but pray about it anyways

�MRS� - : Am I? Perhaps that is the clinician's hat. . . I've a question and am interested in both the answer, and what the question elicits in a group. . .

"J" - : how long now blue?

�MRS� - : I'm not sure what I said was or was not terrible. . . I'm sorry Robin, I'm just a mite lost there.

"B": since my divorce?

"B": 10 years now

"K" - : WELL I,M NOT HERE TO BE EXAMINED ....BYE

"K" - has left the room

�MRS� - : People are so interesting.

"R" - : maybe I miss understood what you said �MRS�

�MRS� - : Or I you. . .

�MRS� - : Easy to do in here with words flying and the order sometimes amiss. . . and the tonality and intent near impossible to discern.

"J" - : as far as the Church............I think you have to be pro-active......and ask for help sometimes...........people can't read your mind.........of course, sometimes I wish I didn't say so much..........can become fadder for gossip

�MRS� - : Yes. . . but do you think that perhaps 'the church' or its programs could also from time to time use a revamping to meet the needs of the growing single populas better?

"B": you're right �J�, asking is hard for many of us who've done so much service before

"J" - : never married........does have it's problems..........i feel like I was thow back in the the never married cycle and had lost 28 almost 30 yrs of my life

�MRS� - : It was difficult to go from YW President and 'Bishop's wife' . . . to one of the ones discussed in ward council.

�MRS� - : Yes �J�. . . I understand that feeling as well.

"B": except some of the rules have changed �J�

"B": chink and "C" - LOL

�MRS� - : Most of them Blue. . .

"Y" - : The programs are there and from the Prophet, the problem is that the married leaders don't understand how to use them or what the needs of the singles are.

"B": so true yackie

�MRS� - : and also our experience. Having "been there' and going back to being 18 socially, but NOT being 18, is certainly a challenge. Do you believe there is help out there if you need it?

"Y" - : we have one singles program and many different types of singles and avenues of getting there.

�MRS� - : Do you think it is possible to mold the programs so that they DO better serve those they are attempting to serve Jay?

"B": it's also what we choose to do when we become single too and what we expect of others which can make a difference in getting and receiving

"SC" - : i dont thing the churches higher ups have ever been dicorced or they would have programs for the over 40 and 50 groups....they are so stuck on getting the young ones married and with family .hum just a thought

"B": mind if I ask something �MRS�?

�MRS� - : I think it is a good thought Scorpio. . .

�MRS� - : Please.

"C" - : our ward has an interesting twist on the sigles ministry - there are 3 married couples called to oversee the singles, each in one age group - and they are the cream of the ward. IT is nice

"Y" - : It's a matter of getting the people needed for the program. so often they call singles who are inactive to try to activate others

Thank you for helping chat be a clean, friendly environment.

�MRS� - : Is it "C" - ? I'm not certain I'd feel comfortable being 'overseen' by 'marrieds' as if somehow being 'unmarried' was something that needed chaperoning. . .

"B": are these questions personal or are they asked for professional reasons?

"Y" - : the program comes from Heavenly Father, not the higher ups.

�MRS� - : Another good point Jay.

"C" - : no it's not like that

"C" - : not overseers, but mroe like shepherds, a little more attention. Maybe it is because I am new to the area and appreciate the attention

"O" - : ty blue

"O" - : hi judy

�MRS� - : Both Blue. . . I feel that there were holes in my experience. . . holes that could be fixed for those who follow. . .and I am willing to be a voice to do so, if there is a need.

�CN� - : ya know, a Bishop has to be married - a scriptural requirement

"Y" - : that is what is called for in the singles manuel, "C" -

�MRS� - : Perhaps "C" - . Everyone's experiences are valid. . . .and different.

"O" - : hi "K" -

"Y" - : they are susposed to be advisors and helpers only, not reps

"B": ok just wondering

"R" - : My bishop wants the single sisters in the ward to do something togetheronce every month

"B": true yackie

"C" - : well in the other ward I was in the job was given to singles within the group, and often it was a bit overwhelming to them. I don't know, haven't been single all that long

"J" - : i can't keep up guys..............my input comes up ten minutes after the real conversation.........

"B": is there any reason why the church should be responsible for singles interacting?

"O" - :

"J" - : i feel like i'm handicapped........oops, not politically correct

"B": �J� you put it very well

"Y" - : the married couples are there to provide rides, help at conferences, support etc., the reps make the plans and decisions

"C" - : hey sis, welcome to the club. These things make me dizzy. I am staying on alittle longer because I was bratty and need to redeem myself

"B": we need you input too "C" -

�MRS� - : There are several issues. . . one of the one that I am the most concerned with isn't actually the 'singles program' though it certainly could use some looking at. . . but the nowhere zone that falls between getting left (Or leaving) your marriage, and the final papers. Sometimes it is a period of 2-3 years, and I've heard so many stories of folks who simply fell into the cracks because there was simply NOplace for them to fit. . .

"C" - : not responsible, just facilitating

"PH" - : in my experience, neither the church nor the singles program, does a good job of intigating interaction by singles

"C" - : thanks blue

"O" - : i am not sure of the topic but as a single i was exec sec and ran the ward for over 3 yrs, i guess the single guys have all the time

"C" - : you are right about that �MRS� - it is a difficult period

"PH" - : and that is why I developed my workshop for singles conferences

"B": you're right �MRS� that's limbo land for many

"R" - : I am off to bed everyone. sweet dreams to you all.

"J" - : i think when your single you real have to get out there and not

"B": you do workshops phillip?

"C" - : night robin

"B": gnite robin, sweet slumber

"PH" - : teaching LDS Singles how to flirt, communicate, matchmake, etc

"B": where do you do these workshops?

"PH" - : yes, I have for the last 12 years

"T" - : sj, you were going on about your poor treatment, then you show your own lack of humanity by making a snide remark about being handicappied

�MRS� - : I'd have to agree Phillip. The truly nice and 'eligible' men that I DO know. . . would NEVER attend any of the single events, and one was a bishop himself. I'm just not certain what to do about it. . but as I said, I am mostly concerned for that lost 'limbo land'. . . as you aptly put it Blue. There is at least a singles program. . . but it seems there is simply nothing for the hardest time at all. . .

"PH" - : whereever I am invited

"Y" - : the singles program is not meant to be a match making program

"J" - : incomplete thoughts now...........<grin>.........maybe time for bed for me too..........

�MRS� - : You really believe that Jay?

"B": how does one get to do one at a conference?

"O" - : good point yackie

�MRS� - : No �J�. . . your imput is valuable.

"J" - : i was on last nite until 2:00 pm and then up at 5:30...........i could hardly see my computer screen at work.

"C" - : good point �MRS� - I am grateful that time is past, but it was so much longer than I expected

chink: the ghost is fading for the night

"PH" - : I am on the venue, and they join in

"C" - : night, sis, if you are going....we will see you again

"C" - : night chink

�MRS� - : IT was H*ll. . . to be blunt. It isn't only losing your spouse. . . it is the death of the LDS dream that is so terribly difficult.

"B": so how does a stake rep get in touch with you?

�MRS� - : and who do you have to talk to about it?

"C" - : yes, so true �MRS�

chink has left chat

�MRS� - : I, for instance, didn't even know a 'single' person. Not one.

"Y" - : yes, there is, it's called relief society and home teachers, visiting teachers with a caring heart

"B" watches the ghost fade throught walls and wishes him sweet slumber if ghosts sleep

"J" - : oh, oops......i've got chink and "C" - fixed up......i wondered by chink was talking so much...

"T" - : I think SJ showed her true self with her handicapped remark,

�MRS� - : I had no idea of the law, what to do, expect, turn, even who I was.

�MRS� - : Do you think that really works Jay?

"PH" - : the best ones I did were San Diego and Las Vegas

"C" - : hopefully they do have caring hearts - but the Lord always does

"B": why does that upset you so much throw?

�MRS� - : They can be kind, but in my experience, they are not where you are. . . and that makes a huge difference.

"C" - : tell me you never felt the least bit weird, throw

"J" - : sorry throw................didn't mean to offend......i'm a good girl I am.......

�MRS� - : What do you mean by that throw?

"C" - : well I guess that leaves us/them with one Friend

"C" - : the one that matters

"T" - : I feel very weird, and at time very out of place

�MRS� - : It is a difficult time isn't it?

"B": are you disAbled throw?

"C" - : see, betcha that's what she meant

"C" - : we're on the same page after all

"T" - : no

"Y" - : the Savior has been where you are and you have to trust him and those he has called to serve

"C" - : we love you throw

�MRS� - : Do you think that a group would have helped any of you through that time? A caring counciling-centered, NOT date-centered group of folks with similar experiences and information abotu YOUR state and where things might/could go. . .and what decisions to focus on. . . and even some grief therapy?

"C" - : for the first year or so I always felt like people hated me - or judged me

"B": �MRS� I had a great group for that, it really does help

�MRS� - : I believe that Jay. . . yet I also believe that the Lord gave us each intuition and talents to offer and share.

"J" - : <<<<<<<<communica tion misunderstanding????????

"C" - : It took a while to come to the realization that it was my broken dreams talking, and be able to accept the love that was coming to me

�MRS� - : Church - instigated or NON LDS Blue?

"Y" - : and nine times out of ten, what you think people are thinking isn't really what they are thinking

"O" - has left the room

"C" - : speak up �J� -

�MRS� - : Agreed Jay. . . yet if you don't have an avenue to TALK about it. . . where does the healing come from?

"C" - : right yackie

"J" - : i was in such a fog for the first year.........sometimes i'm not sure who or what i talked about........

�MRS� - : Like we are now. . . in many ways. Just knowing there is someplace to turn for information and support.

�MRS� - : I know that feeling �J�. . .

"Y" - : I'm a widow after 32 years of marriage and everyone else was divorced and I felt the same way, like no new how I felt or could understand.

"C" - : yes, and we do understand - someone here has probably had a similar experience

"J" - : �MRS�?........how long married?..........now long divorced

�MRS� - : 24 years.

"B": I had that �MRS�, makes all the diff

"C" - : I think the first key is believeing that God really knows and cares, then you can begin to let someone else in to help you heal

�MRS� - : Yes Blue. . did I miss your answer? Was it an LDS group?

"Y" - : I had to go to grief counseling through the hospital but I took the initiative and didn't expect someone else to do it for me.

�MRS� - : Exactly Jay. . no matter how much they try to help, it isn't the same as someone who has 'been there'.

"C" - : I think he did - this is "C" -

"B": no, but I'm thinking of starting one locally

"J" - : faith in my Heavenly Father is the only thing that helped me "literrally" survive.

�MRS� - : I'm not sure it is about 'expecting'. . as much as it is about information, and having some place that you 'belong'. .. in the most difficult time of any life.

�MRS� - : as am I Blue. . . and talking to LDSSS about it.

"C" - : welcome

"Y" - : my hardest thing to get over was the feeling that all I had to do was stop breathing and I could be with my husband again

"B": you're right �MRS�

"B": well let me know how it goes, �MRS� cuz I haven't been successful thru them yet

�MRS� - : Difficult thoughts to overcome aren't they Jay? Esp with our view of Heaven and the glory there.

"J" - : 'whisper"........."T" - are you angry with me.......i'm sorry if I offended you........or

�MRS� - : Have you talked with them Blue?

"C" - : I guess I was on the other end, - I could not breathe free until he was gone

"B": not here but in another ward

�MRS� - : That happens too "C" - . . . but then you are left with the death of 'the dream'. Even if you are glad 'he' or 'she' is gone. . . you still have to grieve the loss of the LDS 'family' scenerio. . .

"C" - : ?

"Y" - : then when I started going to singles things I was told by divorced men that I was unavailable to them because I was already sealed to my husband and once again I didn't fit.

"C" - : oh and terribly

"B": so true �MRS�

�MRS� - : What do you do about that Jay? Where do you find solace? Faith is wonderful, but we still have to live in the day-to-day.

"J" - : i kept wanting to wake up from the bad dream......

"Y" - : no matter how you become single at the time, the person you were dies and you have to find out who you are as a single

�MRS� - : Yes �J�. . . INdeed.

"B": seems that's another issues which affects many women yackie

�MRS� - : Which is an important thing to learn Jay. . . married or single. . . yet a very upsetting and difficult nudge there.

"C" - : IT was interesting to me that the person that emerged was the same girl I was back in college - I hadn't seen her for so long, so busy trying to be mrs perfect

"Y" - : I spend as much time in the TEmple as I can. I know that I am a child of God and that I do belong, I now am just a different catagory, not a different person

�MRS� - : Yet. . . again. . . wouldn't it have simply helped a huge amount, to have this sort of open dialogue, just the month after you first became 'single'. . . for the most part?

"B": that's the way to think of it Yackie

�MRS� - : Exactly "C" - !

"J" - : one of the first things a counselor asks me to do was........what did i want to been when I was young and single..........

�MRS� - : Yet. . . ought we have to look at it anyway at all? Can there be something that would ease that pigeon-holeing?

"SC" - : if you are a supervisor and you are having problems with an employee find out if they are going through the divorce thing and have patience with em.give em some rules....just a thought

"J" - : i just about lost it totally...........because all I every wanted was to be loved and have my family around me

"C" - : OH YES, to knw a little more of what to exect. I was so afraid and angry and excited and sad and everything all at once. Amazed I didn;t blow a fuse or something

"B": good thought too scorp

�MRS� - : Yes �J�. It changes the entire paradigm. . .

"B": when i got divorced I decide to find out just who I was, didn't wait for someone to ask

"J" - : yackie.......don't get that? unavailable to them.....?

�MRS� - : yes "C" - . Confused, angry, probaby some guilt. . .

"B": me too �J� yet life changed for us

"C" - : I became almost a stranger to my children though.

�MRS� - : and your kids. . . they too no longer 'fit'. . . even though everyone is kind (sometimes. . . not always). . . there are adjustments. I just think there is a hole that needs addressing.

"C" - : I was there, but I was suddenly happier, marter, different

"O" - : ty carol, judy

"C" - : yes

"Y" - : yes, because I couldn't be sealed to them and they want to be sealed again

�MRS� - : There just seems to be zero. . . for the Limboites.

"B": guess I'm different then cuz as I went through that process I grew stronger not weaker

"B": or confused

�MRS� - : I think we all grew stronger eventually Blue. . . some simply have a bit of a sigh first.

"C" - : well, it is an adjustment period, but I would not say zero.

"SC" - : i came from a non divorced family ......and we were not ready for what was to come........hey looking back i can laugh at myself ect..and i moved up the ladder....life is better....it just took a few more years of work to see it.

"B": ditto scorp

"C" - : the sadness still creeps up once in a while, though I am SO SO much happier and better

"B": hi lea

"SC" - : i have seen men at work become drunks loose thier jobs.....women go red light lives ....and over time they all made it......

"C" - : that dream is very real

"C" - : it does not let go easily

"B": Ihave no sadness except for what was lost......the dream, but the promise is still ahead

�MRS� - : Looking back is exactly what I'm doing. I don't want the next woman left alone without means of support. . . to simply have to brave it through with bloodied fingernails for 2 - 3 years until she finds out that you really DO get through it. . . How

much better and how much sooner would I have made those positive changes, had I had the information and support that Blue talks about.

"B": which one?

"J" - : i was married for 28 yrs.......must have done something right...........but I had no idea the divorce was comin..............got hit was a 2 x 4..........he left me for a new lifestyle.........if you know what I mean

"C" - : yes, once the promise comes into view, everything starts falling into place

�MRS� - : Do you think that it is valid that people need to go through the stages of grieving for 'the dream' ?

�MRS� - : Yes I do "J". . .

"C" - : well we do it, so it must be

"SC" - : yes you have to go through the grieving thing .butyou dont have to get lost in it.

"J" - : weel, got to go.......it's almost tomorrow.......

"B": �MRS� have you ever considered it's all part of the struggle to learn and it's what we each need?

"C" - : it is good of you to care about the ones to follow, �MRS�

"B": so true scorp

"Y" - : You always have the Bishop to counsel with, and you naturally gravitate to others in the Church who are in the same situation. You have to spend alot of time on your knees and you have to be willing to let those responsible for you know that you have needs ie, home teacher, v.t. r.s.pres.

"J" - : blue i can't belief that in my case.......mine was because of his choices.

�MRS� - : Yes Blue. . . yet I also know that many MANY. . . find the struggle is too much for them. . . and there is nothing for them to hold on to. Why have church at all, if we are supposed to 'tough it out'?

�MRS� - : alone.

"B": as were mine �J�, but I stilll had choices in how I was to

act to what happened to me

"Y" - : It has been four years for me and each year has brought a new experience and a new growth and learning, that lost time is part of the growth process

"C" - : I am not sure how much grief you can avert though. When my bishop told me that the time would come when I did not hurt anymore, that is would be a distant memory, I did not believe him. But the day is here now. I am still amazed. I think each marriage

and each divorce or bereavement is different enough that only the Eternal Sacrifice comprehends it all

"Y" - : you get out of Church what you put into it.

"B": I understand �MRS�, I just know care must be taken when helping, so we dont end up enabling.......much as Idislike that word

"C" - : hi jorge

"O" - thinks that from the topic that maybe still being single is a good thing

"SC" - : hey the div....was like a roller coaster ride........you screamed and no one heard .....and then as it came to a stop you felt soo good.......

�MRS� - : Yes Jay. . . but perhaps that was 'enough' in your case, but in mine. . . it simply wasn't. Those are good people, but they are all happily married. I simply did not relate to them, nor honestly they to me. I saw the fear and helplessness in their eyes, along with the pity. Nothing they can help, just the nature of the beast, but there just the same.

"B": true "C" - but there are stages of grief which all go thru

"Y" - : I still cry everyday for my husband but each day I also feel the love of my family and my Heavenly Father

"B": �MRS�, how long have you been a member of your ward?

"B": And Yackie how long for you?

"C" - : sounds like you are getting through it day by day Yackie - what else can we do?

�MRS� - : I have to agree BLue . . . that is exactly why a professional setting would be so much more preferable to well-meaning VTers and such who mean well, but honestly can do more harm than good.

"Y" - : I had been a member for five years when he died

�MRS� - : 4 years. 2 When he left.

"B": and informal setting is better by far than a professional one

"SC" - : i did a lot of reading......john gray read all he wrote........and it sure helped me on my attitude....about women......i never once thought of em any less the the best.

"C" - : maybe in some cases it is what brings us to the savior's feet, the Gethsemane that purifies us to be like Him. There aren't many other reasons to have to go through the pain

�MRS� - : At times. . . an informal/ professional setting. . . if that makes sense.

"Y" - : I don't believe someone who is serving and giving love can do harm, maybe not the good they are trying to do, but they too are only doing the the best they can

�MRS� - : So, you think that we are called to go through things like this for some 'eternal purpose' "C" - ? That help would be undesirable?

"B": see that may be the differ too........Yackie, you lost due to death.......so you received sympathy, but when someone divorces,.......others tend to think differently of them sometimes

"B": I do �MRS�

"C" - : no that is not what I am saying at all �MRS� -

"SC" - : i met my wife at the right time in life we got div.at the right time in our life.....we live a good life just a different one......but as i look back cause i cant see the future it was all for the good of us both....

"O" - : ya sweet lumber

"B": there is an eternal purpose behind all, but help is desirable as well

"B": oaky?

�MRS� - : The difference b'tween divorce and death, is that you still have your memories. Now mine are all gone. I met him at 16. . . so my entire childhood is almost now a memory that is painful. . . I'm not mentioning that for any kind of sympathy, only

pointing out that though many things are similar, there are many differences as well.

"C" - : I do believe that help is necessary, but not a one size fits all. We do go through trials for a reason, I know that

"B": I agree "C" -

"Y" - : we came here to have trials and to prove ourselves. I am so blessed to have the trials I have had rather than having lost a child or so many other things I could have gone through.

"B": why all gone? mine memories aren't gone they are a part of who I am today

�MRS� - : No, but I can't see how a place to go for information, education, and even like-experiences could be a bad thing. . . no one would be forced to attend, but having nothing at all available seems contraproductive to healing.

"Y" - : the pain isn't any more though, no matter how you became

single the lonliness is the same

"C" - : I think when we are prayerful and careful as visiting teachers or home teachers, we open ourselves up to an eternal source of wisdom to deal with each individual

"SC" - whispers: hugs married my highschool sweetie....i was the only one she dated.......something like you.

"B": so true "C" -

"B": and O so true Yackie

"Y" - : we have help available through Church Family Services.

You whisper to "SC" - : then you understand what I mean.

"W" - has joined chat

�MRS� - : In some ways, yes. . .

"C" - : also the bishop stands in the place of Christ to a member,and is given authority to offer inspired counsel. I was so mad whn my bishop told me I needed counseling

"Y" - : I not only lost my husband, my son committed suicide the following year, and I lost my home the next year.

"B": If I may �MRS�, aren't you saying that Church Family services don't do enough for singles ?

�MRS� - : Partly. . . but LDSSS has only one on one counselors. . . who are usually married. Mine was wonderful, but not enough. . .

"W" - : hi princess

"C" - : but it was right on - I was so codependent I did not know how far from myself I had strayed

"J" - : how do you make your heart believe what you mind knows?.................

"B": you dont' �J�, you allow the Spirit to show you how

"C" - : NO counselor can take the place of a willingness to grow and change

"W" - : how is everyone tonite

�MRS� - : I'm saying. . . there is a whole between when you are first 'left' and when you can start attending singles programs. . . that leaves people completely without a place to feel they belong. You aren't married, and you aren't single. I think something could be addressed.

"C" - : or to be honest

�MRS� - : hole

�MRS� - : It is getting late.

"B": you're right �MRS�, thanks for the clarification

"Y" - : we have the best counselor of all at our beck and call 24/7 All we have to do is get on our knees

"J" - : i believe the mind and the sprit can be one in the same.

"C" - : I do not see that - Relief SOciety is universal, although I admit in practice it usually less than perfect

"C" - : same with the priesthood quorums

"SC" - : good one �MRS� think that is the gray area........i know it.

"W" - : is our resident poet having trouble spelling at this late hour {wink to �MRS� - }

"O" - : there are alot of holes...like the need for a midsingles program or a single never married program

"B": I also think if some who were contemplating divorce really knes who tough it is.........they were work harder in their marriages too

"B": midsingles?

"Y" - : members who are married to a non-member or inactive member go through the same thing and manage to survive, while not fitting in

"C" - : that's true blue

�MRS� - : and wondering. . . if you folks could look back, and if you thought that if there had been a service where others in the same stage could get together and simply ask questions, talk about experiences, and get some feedback and instruction on how to handle the huge change before them. . . would have been helpful.

"O" - : 26 - 40 something

"C" - : I think the only way to divorce is under the direction of the Spirit, but sometimes it happens to people unexpectedly

"SC" - : god created the internet and single sites ......some sites like this one is good medicain.....

"W" - : what's kept you so busy

"J" - : midsingles?.....oak, i've heard that before........i've heard that word before...........a friend of mine from high school in a repr in his stake.........is it something new?

"C" - : makes you want to go off a half a dozen times to hear it, huh princess?

"B": so true scorp

"C" - :

�MRS� - : So do I understand you Jay. . . that you feel that things are just fine the way they are, and there is no need for any further look at assistance to that specific group I'm talking about?

�MRS� - : Getting my CMT West. . .

�MRS� - : Finals on Friday. . .

�MRS� - : Europe tour. . . singing.

"C" - : son wants to be read to - you all have a nice evening!

�MRS� - : Three kids graduating. . .

"W" - : good luck

"Y" - : I believe that we all need to look more to having our needs met and more to how we can meet the needs of others

"B": what does getting a cmt entail �MRS�?

"W" - : what is CMT again?

�MRS� - : Good rub. . . ::winks ::

"C" - : see you all

"SC" - : hey the internet came at a good time for me......i am never alone anymore.......neither are any of you.....you have some great friends here...to listen and talk to....a neet thing.

�MRS� - : Certified Massage Therapist.

"O" - : there are many singles things here that are great for grey and white hair a mid singles age is a bit more taylored to age interest

"W" - : nite cint

"Y" - : I meant less to haveing our needs met

"B": I mean what does it take to earn that title?

"W" - : professional back rubs. I could go for one of those

"W" - : I'd even do my best to return the favor

"W" - : lol

"B": oak, I agree there is a lack there too

�MRS� - : Interesting perspective Jay. . . and how will that help a woman who knows no single people, has no idea how she will support herself or her children, or even if she will have a home in a month?

�MRS� - : It takes hours of schooling Blue. . . Anat and Phys. . . classes in all sorts of modalities and hours of practice and documentated massages. . . quizzes and midterms, then a final and a final practical.

"B": or.........how does it help someone who lives in an area with no family nor friends? Due to military or other moves

"Y" - : the material things are the responsibility of the Bishop and Relief Society, the Spiritual needs are your own responsibility

"B": how long �MRS� for school?

"W" - : i know I just came into the middle of your conversation

�MRS�, but I would like to suggest that your concern for that certain group is genuine. However, if more priesthood brethren would do their home teaching every month the way it is suppose to be done, then those you are speaking about would have the help they need arranged as needed

�MRS� - : D'pends on where you live Blue. . . here it is 126 hours to begin, then continuing to 500 hours, but you can practice while you get more hours.

"O" - whispers: hang in there friend

�MRS� - : I understand that as well West. . . but I had a magnificent HTer. . . and there was still a lack. He was happily married.

"Y" - : that which does not kill you, makes you strong

You whisper to "O" - : :: gentle smile :: I'm fine. . . I'm interested in changing things for those who follow.

"B": that's easy to say Yackie and I do understand and agree to much of what you say, but I also am aware that some find themselves without resources and with a bishop who may agree with the dumper than with the dumpee........and then there's no church resources.

"Y" - : not all our needs will be met by others, we must meet some ourselves

�MRS� - : and. . . I've spoken to plenty where the 'system' simply does NOT work. Enough to have me here talking with all of you frankly. Men whose wives slept with their brother-in-laws. . .and whose bishop wouldn't return their calls. . . and a plethora of other stories.

"B": not all are equiped to do so when this happens tho yackie

"W" - : I've been shaking up a few of my bishops and stake leaders lately. I tell them that we need more church sponsored single adult activites so that the single adults won't have to keep going to the bars to find other singles. When they ask me how I know that singles are going to the bars, I just tell them that I see them there. The look on their face is great, and it makes them stop and think

"Y" - : even though my husband didn't leave of his own accord, my financial situation changes just the same.

"Y" - : I had no insurance and a passal of bills

"B": O yes, has anyone heard they are dissolving the area presidencies? and their responsibilities will go to the stake presidencies.

�MRS� - : Of course. . . that goes without saying, but I can not meet my own needs, when I have no idea whatsoever to do, things like state law, how to file, what my rights are. . . even how to find a lawyer. . . all of this amidst the hardest kick in the gut possible. That is the thing Jay. . . your comments show me exactly that you have no idea how it feels. Not to be disrespectful, for I don't know how you feel. . .but it is not the same.

"B": the challenges are different true �MRS� but widows have great challenges too

"Y" - : well that's not true, I was divorced once myself and I do know of the helplessness and shame

�MRS� - : and. . . b'fore I get sympathy. . . that is rhetorical. I am healthy, happy, and wonderful now. . . but it was a long and arduous road here. Paved with many mistakes that I know could have been avoided with just a little more practical assistance.

"W" - : and every time I say that to a church leader, they always stop to talk with me more about it. and that is when I get them to really understand the difference between them going home to a spouse and us having to go find someone to talk with

�MRS� - : IT isn't a comparison. . . it is simply a discussion of different paradigms. It is completely interesting to hear different reactions to the idea and thoughts.

"Y" - : I had to learn what needed to be done just like you, and I didn't even have the Church at all.

�MRS� - : Perhaps humorous W, but you aren't all that far off.

"W" - : I say it with a very straight face. I want them to understand the differnce and if I have to shock them into listening, I am willing to do it

"SC" - : i was in nevada and at a 21 table set the bishop and his counclers...hum i made a point of saying hi.......in a nice way.

�MRS� - : I haven't (admittedly) ever been to a 'singles event'. .

"Y" - : I have been in both situations and have had to work very hard to get to where I am now.

�MRS� - : but that is not what my focus is currently.

�MRS� - : We all have Jay.

�MRS� - : but does that mean that those who follow must work as hard as we?

"W" - : when it comes to age, I'll have you all know that I'm only 26 (for the 2nd time) hehe

�MRS� - : I'm 44. . . happily. . and I'd NOT wish to do any of it over again, thank you very much.

"B": ahhhh west got cha beat.......I'm 25 with 29 years of experiences

S: I am only 36 and could date your mom

"Y" - : what I am trying to get across is that we all will have trials and we must go through them to grow and learn and not always look to someone else to help us have an easier time of it.

"W" - : I gave a friend a t-shirt a few years ago. It said "I'm not 40, I'm 18 with 22 years experience"

"B": hey you younsters are always welcome to stir things in here, we do that ourselves too

�MRS� - : That isn't debated J. . . but what it sounds like you are saying is. . . 'tough it out. . . everyone has problems, let those who come after tough it out like I had to'.

"Y" - : I would give almost anything to have my husband back, but I also know that I wouldn't have grown nearly as much as I have spiritually if I did.

"O" - : now celebrating 23rd anniversary of my 20th birthday

"W" - : in 6 more years, I'll be 20 for the 3rd time is it still true that 3rd time's the charm

�MRS� - : and that is part of it too Jay. . . you'll have your husband back. I never will. If that makes any sense.

"Y" - : but if you live worthy, you will have a husband

"B": it's not the same thing Y, you know who you are sealed to........we do not

�MRS� - : Well folks, thank you for the input. . . very very interesting, and nice to actually have a decent conversation in here. . .

Oct 18 �

Hi Marsha...

Well, I wanted to wait to write when I had something profound to share about what you wrote, but I just don't!.....I was all teary as I read this, and have no idea what you could add to it...it was very touching and shares the practical realities that sometimes gets forgotten beyond the spiritual pain of a divorce...I thought it was very good you addressed that also. I think you are very inspired to be doing this, and I would love it if every church member could read this in the Ensign....REALLY! I really think when you're done and ready, you should submit it.

You have my permission to use whatever you'd like...and you can forward it to me at xxxxxxxxx
Have a wonderful day, my friend!

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Introducation and Main Thesis on Divorce - LDS Style

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